Q & A with The Vet

Cancel the Surgery for My Very Navicular Horse

Dear Dr. Teskey,

My name is Mona Elston and I am ready to have my horse nerved this Tuesday.  After a year of “corrective” or “therapeutic” shoeing, my horse is still lame.  The thought of nerving him makes me sick to my stomach (especially after I read your article “Bringing the Sparkle Back in Crystal’s Life”.  My reason for nerving him is to get him out of pain and give him some quality of life– I have another horse I can ride.  I am just tired of seeing him in pain.  I bought him when he was 5 ½, he is now 7 and he was lame 30 days after I bought him.  I suspect they gave him a “30 day” injection in the bursa before they dumped him because the x-rays showed that the navicular disease had been there for some time.  I don’t have horse property so I have to board him so I am trying to do the best that I can do for him.  Is there any way I can call you for a phone consultation and if so, what is your fee?  I am at my wit’s end. 

Thank you.

M

Hi M,

There's an awful lot of information out there for you to read and explore.  As you've discovered, the surgery is simply a "cover up" for your horse's real problems.  You'll need to find someone in your area that is familiar with natural hoof care and can help you with getting some hoof boots.  Or, you can simply get some boots yourself as a very good start.  By exercising your horse in boots with the metal shoes pulled off, you may very well notice improvement immediately.  Visit EasyCare's website  to look at the various boots available.  Either the "Epic" boots or the "Old Mac" boots would likely work well for you.  Read Pete Ramey's website if you haven't already, as well as continue to do computer searches and find other sites that have good information.  Many sites have lists of trimmers by region.  Do a search for "natural hoof care trimmer" to find some of these- Click here is a to see a good one.

 

You're on the right track.  Keep up your research.  Get some boots BEFORE pulling the shoes- then get the horse's shoes pulled off. Do NOT have the horse trimmed at this time.  Walk/ride your horse with the boots on and you'll likely notice improvement very quickly, as metal shoes are not only painful for a horse but PREVENT healing instead of helping like many professionals will tell you.

 

Take care,

Dr. Tom T.

 

Dr. Teskey,

Thank you very very much.  I have canceled the nerving and I will try pulling Ziggy’s shoes and putting on the Old Macs and find a certified barefoot trimmer.  It can’t do any more harm and if nothing else, I am hoping it will help.  Nerving is definitely not the answer. 

Thank God I found your website and learned more about the nerving procedure.  It sounds like I dodged a bullet.

Thank you for your time,

M

Good for you, Mona.  I believe you'll have good success, and learn some very cool things over the next few months.  Knowledge is empowering and you and your horses will be better for it.

Dr. T

Could you advise on my horse, Joe?

Hi Dr. T,

 

Long time no chat. I would like to run an interesting horse by you.

 

Joe is a 6 year old QH paint from out west.  He was shod for the last 7 months, here in SE Pennsylvania.  During the spring, he was slightly off, first on RF, then LF.  He took the summer off. Body worker recommended he go barefoot.  I trimmed him today for the 3rd time.  Although his foot is round, concavity forming nicely, nice frogs, great horn quality, his toes are long and his heels are under-run.  He wears Old Mac's G2 hoof boots with half inch Comfort Pads.

 

Lifestyle: Turned out for the day time and in at night, "the winter schedule", with a small herd in a nice sized pasture.  Food is fine. Owner does Parelli on ground and riding about 5 days per week. They have a soft arena and cross county.  I am not sure owner can talk barn manager into leaving him out at night with a friend, but that would be my recommendation.  He is a bit chubby but not laminitc.

 

He was diagnosed with Lyme disease (apparent in most of our horses) but because of his lameness issues is being treated with an antibiotic.  Owner is supplementing with a pro-biotic.

 

Today, I trimmed him and he is off on the soft arena and firm grass.  The vet was visiting and called him foot sore. (I don't agree.  To me foot sore horses can walk in soft terrain but not on gravel and rocks)  The vet wants to shoe him then block him to see where the problem lies.  She thinks shoes will take the "foot sore" variable out of the mix.

 

He is 99% sound with padded boots.  The vet said it's barely perceptible.  I forget your rating system but the number where only a professional will notice it.

 

So my common sense tells me that the long toes and under run heels may have taken their toll on his tendons and joints during his 6 years.  I would recommend as much sound movement as possible, avoiding whatever bothers him, like small circles.  Given his age, I would expect him to work thru this period.  He is trimmed every 4 weeks.  I do Pete Ramey's trim but leave the walls just a nick over the sole, not an eighth of an inch.

 

Your comments are most welcome and don't worry about contradicting my "common sense".  I am a lifelong student.

 

Thanks, as always for all your help.

 

Dawn

Hi Dawn,

As you are likely aware, horses recently out of shoes like this can have multiple issues.  You're still in that real touchy time- we underestimate how many changes are occurring in horses like this.  You mention seeing some concavity developing, but this is not likely the case.  It is concavity that is already there.  It may disappear with coming out of shoes and the capsules collapsing, especially with some laminitis.  I think you are correct in thinking it is a problem.  I don't think we can expect to see honest, new concavity developing in laminitic cases until the walls are nearly grown out.  Often times you'll maintain concavity and never lose it if laminitis is kept at bay.

If your horn quality is as good as you say coming out of shoes, it should be phenomenal next year.

Wonder what the Lyme is doing/has done to his connective tissue/metabolism/soundness?

Certainly the long toe/low heel adds some fierce stresses to the legs and joints.  Your plan sounds prudent- as much sound movement as possible will heal the horse to the best of his ability.  Well, not quite that good with the stalling at night, but pretty good.

See how it goes.  Horses need at least one to two years to fully recover from the negative effects of shoeing, so long term planning is always a good bet.

Dr. Tom

Nerving

Dr. Tom,

I just read your article about "nerving" and had a few questions.  I have a 6 year old cutting horse that was highly successful.  He was shod every 6 weeks faithfully and had great care.  Last year he seemed a little off but not real noticeable.  He did have some heel pain in one foot, none in the other.  After many x-rays, and lameness exams it was found that the nervicular bursa had been torn.  I think this happened at a cutting in too deep of sand.  My vet said it had healed but there was no way to tell how involved it was.  He recommended nerving him, because he said the damage had been done and healed.  He only had the very slightest of a limp.  I would like to know your opinion.  I don't want to do more damage to him, if his career is over, I can accept that.

Thanks!  Robin

Hi Robin,

 

Scarring in this area can cause mechanical as well as painful interference with the horse's gait.  Since we currently do not have an effective way to remove scar tissue from these previously injured areas, many of these horses have a permanent "hitch" with the way they travel.  I have had the best results getting optimum hoof form and function in these horses, which takes much of the pressure off their injured/scarred areas.

 

Dr. TT

A Tough Mare

Hi T2 and hope this finds you warm and well.

 

I am struggling with an older TWH mare who was in shoes and harshly ridden for most of her life.

 

I began trimming her in May, 2007.  She was ouchy walking on anything so we put her in boots and she was quite happy.  Worked her way out of boots in a month or so.  Was tested positive for Lymes but not treated.

 

I worked with the owner who now trims her 2 horses and pony and does a nice job.

 

This mare got ouchy again so we suspected lamintis and took her off grass (turnout on grass was a few hours daily).  Got the sugar out of her diet, soaked the hay, booted as needed.  Added in a probiotic to counter act the bute regimen as discussed next.

 

The Vet, suspecting lamintis, had her on isoxsuprine (which was discontinued after I talked to owner) and bute which she weaned off.  Any suggestions on managing the pain?  Does bute have a role?

 

In November the owner called me very concerned as mare had runny manure and was losing all tone from topline.  She has definitely aged in appearance in the last year.

 

I did some research and suspected cushings.  Mare tested negative for Cushings, but her muscle enzyme levels were moderately off from normal.

 

Vet has no idea what's going on.

 

And to add to our misery, the herd is refusing to eat the hay purchased last fall so everyone is losing weight. (separate question... have any idea what's going on with the hay?  She didn't report any mold but obviously something is going on.)

 

Any help is so appreciated!

As always thanks so very much.

Dawn

Hi Dawn,

 

My suspicions are that this mare's age (ie- MILEAGE) are catching up with her.  I would still try some jiaogulan herb and cinnamon and chaste tree berry for the Cushing's and possible insulin resistance.  She'll be a tough case from the sounds of it.  Lots of issues!  Get rid of the isoxsuprine- absolutely worthless.  Occasional bute may get you over some "humps", but not good in the long run.  Increase exercise, put her to the test.  You've got nothing to lose.  Glad to hear you're doing well with the trimming and other adventures!

 

Dr. T

FREEDOM FOR THE FEET : Stepping out of steel shoes in style

We are intertwined, heart, mind and soul with these animals.

They perform for us with a work ethic rarely seen in human circles, and become capable of so much more when we allow their feet to function properly.

Click here to read the rest of this article by Dr. Teskey.

Please Need Guidance

Dr. T,

You see, on September 2006 I bought a 5 year old Paso fino mare. She was never shod before and I think it needs corrective hoof trimming.  When I see my son ride her I've noticed in the front legs she's toe out (even when standing) and in the hind legs when the hooves come down they're hitting the ground toe first and through the inside of the hoof (I've seen scratch marks
on each of them as if they're rubbing).  Another thing is that on her right hind hoof (when looking at the horse face to face) it doesn't have much heel, so when the Farrier nails the shoe there's an open area and the heel is on the "air".  My son rides her two or three times a week on pavement (yes, we're allowed here) and it wears the shoe on that hoof in about two weeks.
The other hind hoof is not far behind as far as wearing.  Just to give you an example, she was shod at the beginning of February on a Saturday, we rode her that day, next Monday, Wednesday, and Friday.  When she came in from the ride on that Friday everything was fine and since we live in hot weather we
usually hose her off starting from the legs up to cool her before taking her to the stall.  When we finished hosing her off she starting limping from both her front hooves in a real bad way.  We administer anti-inflammatory shots for a couple of days, pulled the shoes off her front hooves, and waited a month.  After that she was shod again and everything was fine again until this last Monday when my son was riding her and they were coming in into the barn.  She started to limp from one of the front left hooves.  I've asked different farriers and each one will give me his own idea of what they think the problem is.  And lastly, I can't find corrective hoof trimming farriers in my area and would like to learn to do it myself if possible .

Sorry for the long e-mail I just wanted to describe my mare's situation the best I could because I need someone knowledgeable to give me a direction.

Thanks,
Rogelio

Hi R,

 

Do a quick search on the computer for "barefoot horse trimming" and you'll get a lot of information.  You'll need to find someone in your area to help guide you if possible.  Also it would be good for you to get a pair of hoof boots for those front hooves.  After you read some more stuff, get back with me with more questions if you need to.

 

Take care,

 

Dr. TT

warmblood x yearling with severe contraction/high heels with possible check ligament involvement

Hi Dr. Tom,

I am an equine massage therapist working in Australia and have recently been asked to massage a warmblood x arabian yearling which has extremely high and contracted heels.  He is already about 15.2hh and is expected to mature to 17hh.

The barefoot trimmer asked to have this horse massaged in case there was some muscle condition that was contributing to the problem.

I found that while there was muscle imbalance, most likely due to inefficiencies in the stay apparatus, there was nothing severe enough that would make me feel it was strongly influencing the hoof balance.  The yearling was very flexible, athletic, not lame and seemed healthy in all other respects.

There may be some issues with overfeeding and possibly a genetic predisposition to short check ligaments in combination with a recent growth spurt that may be contributing to his condition.  He has just recently been put on a regular barefoot trimming program as the owner was not initially aware of the problem.  It is unclear if this issue was always there or his hoof form has changed dramatically in the last few months only.  The hoof angle is approaching 90 degrees and the pastern alignment is very close to that.  He must be standing on the very tip of his pedal bone and was tender footed after very conservative trimming.

Generally speaking:
* Have you had any experience with management of horses with this sort of issues, or any experience with horses that have had check ligament desotomy?

* Are you aware of the impacts this surgery can have on the horses soundness, etc. and the limitations for the future of the horse based on this?

* Do you have any great reservations about using it as a method for managing this condition.

* I have read that there is potential for a mechanical founder by attempts to lower the heels where the check ligament is involved.  What are your feelings on this?

Certainly regular trimming should be done in any case, however attempts to lower the heels concern me if this is a risk.

At this time, I believe he will benefit from reducing high carb and protein foods so he avoids any further large growth spurts, has regular hoof grooming (fortnightly) and a veterinary inspection involving radiographs etc. with a thorough reappraisal of his situation every 3 months or so.

Not having any direct experience with this sort of thing before, if you could provide me with any feedback on this issue it would be greatly appreciated.

The owner is keen to pursue as many natural avenues of treatment/management as possible and is not keen on surgical intervention at this time.

Regards,

K

Hi K,

These are frustrating, but I can say that if you can avoid the surgery and get them to "grow up" without knuckling over, they often do well.  The problem with the surgery right now is the horse's age.  The ones I've seen done at a young age scar back in and re-contract.  Basically the problem still exists, whether it's the genetics, nutrition, environment, poor conformation... hard to really to honestly fix this.  My advice would be to do your work as best you can with the muscles, have them do the right thing with balancing the nutrition, and buy as much time as you can to get him to get grown up.  Then do the surgery once he's grown if still needed (may not need it in the long run?)

Have you seen Chrisann Ware's site Equithy?  She is a massage person and has some articles you would like! 

I think you're correct in saying the stay apparatus is involved.  In fact, the high heeled scenario inhibits this function so badly for some horses that they simply lay down more since they can't "rest" on their feet.

Let me know how it turns out,

Dr. Tom T.

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Horse Health Question

Hi Dr. T:

 

Question. I am trimming a very skinny 30 year old QH (former polo pony).  The owner neglected his care "for quite a while".  With my encouragement she did get his teeth done.  One was sticking out, into his cheek!  I am no expert in the area but I knew that wasn't right!

 

The vets told her to stop feeding hay as he might choke on it (although he has never choked before) and start loading him up on chopped up alfalfa, molasses and soaked Alfalfa cubes... free choice. Also to feed Purina senior which is also loaded with molasses.

 

Just off the top, this doesn't sound like a great idea but I am no expert, especially with these older horses.  So I told her that you were our only hope for insight into this issue.

 

He is turned out with his 25 year old QH mare friend in a decent sized pasture.  Our spring grass is just starting to peak through the ground.  I honestly don't know if he can graze and if he gets any nutrition from it.

 

Thanks in advance for everything,

 

D

 

 

Hi Dawn,

 

Even those old horses like some fiber to chew on, even if they end up spitting it out.  There are grass-based pellets available now, so you don't have to feed all that excess alfalfa.  I'd say some alfalfa would be OK to help keep weight up.  Nature would likely have taken that horse by now, so going to some extra attention and effort to feed processed things helps them keep going those few extra days/years.

 

Like you, I don't think all that molasses is a good idea... at all.

 

Dr. TT